Sarah: You’re Listening to Good Fit Poor Fit. A podcast that explores the interaction between people, design, and activity. Good Fit Poor Fit is part of The Universal Design Project, a nonprofit organization with a vision for every community across the USA to have a surplus of homes and opportunities for social participation that are universally and financially accessible.
[00:00:27] Learn more at universaldesign.org.
[00:00:31] Rebecca: Hello listeners. We hope you’ve been well and are enjoying the first few official days of summertime, if you count Memorial Day as the beginning of this glorious season. Today, our student, Sally comes to us with another very timely topic. I hope you enjoy this little field trip of sorts to the great outdoors. Sally, take it away!
[00:00:52] Sally: Obviously my mind is on warmer weather and enjoying the outdoors. Last week, we talked about the beach and vacation rentals, and this week we will be discussing accessibility as it relates to outdoor recreation. I think I can speak for myself along with many others in saying that the pandemic has given me a new relationship with the great outdoors.
[00:01:12] I have always loved exploring and playing outside, but something about the past year has made me appreciate a walk in the woods even more than before. I love how nature is such a great escape, both physically and mentally, from our daily life stressors–especially as many of us are still working from home.
[00:01:29] Going on a quick five minute drive down the road to take a hike through a national park is a luxury that I have, and I feel very grateful for. But the other day, when I was doing my routine run with my dog through the woods, I was thinking about how my favorite trail can only be accessed by people without mobility impairments, because this particular trail is steep, rocky, and unpaved. Although my favorite trail is not very accessible, nor are universally designed, we do have some guidelines in place here in the US that make it possible for all people to enjoy mother nature and all of her beauty.
[00:02:05] Sarah: I think this is a great topic to explore. Ha here see I’m already being punny like Rebecca was last week, but get it, “explore” the great outdoors? Anyway, many of you know that my husband Scott uses a wheelchair and we have to think about a lot of different things before we go out into the woods or on a trail. We have to consider the type of equipment he might use. His manual chair with additional attachments, like a power attachment on the back called a smart drive is something we use or the FreeWheel attachment, which is used up front to get those little front caster wheels off the ground so they don’t get stuck in the dirt and rocks. Think about that, like a regular stroller versus a running stroller. I’ll put the links to those in the show notes too.
[00:02:49] So if we don’t choose those options, we also have to think about maybe taking his big bulky power chair with us. Or if the terrain is more rugged, then we might choose an off-road bike. Needless to say, there’s a lot of research to do and conditions to think about before going out to enjoy nature. And that’s just from a physical perspective. I know many others have different checklists that they think through, say if they’re blind or someone that they’re going out with has a cognitive deficit or someone who might wander off.
[00:03:23] Rebecca: Yeah, I think about this a lot as it pertains to people with sensory challenges. Could be a hearing loss, low vision, or even higher, low sensitivity to different sensory experiences. In the case of a person who has low vision, for example, how could outdoor spaces be set up with signage that would work for a variety of people?
[00:03:41] I wonder about braille signage in the outside environment, or even the use of different types of paving and gravel to assist with wayfinding. This also gets me thinking about universal design and how things like pictograms on signs, as opposed to words could be useful for all people, whether they can read, write, speak the language or not.
[00:04:01] Sarah: Yeah, Rebecca different wayfinding considerations that we’ve touched on several times in our episodes is a perfect discussion in this situation too. I think I’ve even heard of a fence-like rope system that goes along the trails to help those with low vision or who are blind to stay on the trails. But even simple, universal pictures and arrows and logical and easy to find locations can do a lot for people who need additional directional cues when traveling through these trails. Bonus points if these are easily identified by people touching them as well so it’s accessible for those who need that tactile cue too.
[00:04:39] I know someone who reads braille, but is also quite proficient in identifying objects by touching them. It’s quite impressive. Many people who lose their sight later in life, actually don’t know how to read braille so any type of tactile wayfinding cues can be helpful for many across the board. Sally, I know you’ve looked up quite a bit of information about what some of our governmental organizations are doing in regard to accessibility in parks and trails. What have you found?
[00:05:07] Sally: Yes. So there are a few national services that are dedicated to providing or improving the accessibility of our natural spaces. I will discuss them briefly, but more information will be provided in the show notes for those who are interested. First, we have the US Access Board. The Access Board is responsible for developing accessibility guidelines for the construction and alteration of facilities covered by the ADA, as well as the Architectural Barriers Act, also known as the ABA. These guidelines contain provisions for boating facilities, fishing, piers, golf facilities, swimming pools, trails, picnic and camping facilities, viewing areas, beach access routes, and even more recreational opportunities. The government provides access passes to those with permanent disabilities and these access passes cover entry fees to all national parks and other federal recreational lands with over 2000 areas to enjoy.
[00:06:04] Sarah: We actually have one of these access passes and while it’s great to get in free, oftentimes they’re only a few trails out of all of the national parks in our area to easily access in a wheelchair. I think some are more doable than others, but I’d love to see even more options in our local area, especially ones that have some sort of fun view or water feature along the way.
[00:06:29] Rebecca: Yeah, I was curious about that, Sarah. So thanks for sharing. I also know you used to live in Colorado. Did you have a similar experience there?
[00:06:38] Sarah: So oddly enough, I actually don’t remember using that pass when we were out in Colorado. But in the town we lived in, it was nestled in the mountains, right near an adaptive sports center, and they were used to using their trails and natural resources with groups of people that had different abilities. So it was fairly easy to find places that were easy to maneuver around, and there were also a lot of options for Scott to try out different trails or paths. There were definitely some trails that weren’t easily accessible because they were more like single track trails for bikes, but there are quite a few wider trails that would accommodate those larger adaptive bikes. And other trails may have had a bit gentler terrain to navigate on in a wheelchair.
[00:07:22] Fortunately, there were a lot of great views that could be taken in via a vehicle, and we spent a ton of time driving through the mountains, right out our back door and checking out the views and exploring little mountain towns nearby. I did feel like there were more bathrooms and trails labeled with accessible wheelchair markings, denoting that some access was available, especially for the bathroom facilities that were by a river, a trail or picnic area.
[00:07:50] Sally: It seems like Colorado has some pretty cool recreation for all people, but I will touch on that more later in that episode, so before we move forward, I want to mention a couple more organizations or services that we have here in the US. The National Park and National Forest Services both have guidelines that are enforced to make America’s natural lands more accessible to all. The US Forest Service is a part of our US Department of Agriculture, and they have published outdoor recreation and trail accessibility documents that are legally enforceable standards for facilities, routes, and features within the national forest system.
[00:08:25] The US Forest Service follows universal design principles so that all new and reconstructed facilities, programs, and associated elements can be accessed to the greatest extent possible. Using universal design principles is a Forest Service policy, and according to the US Forest Service, the result of universal design is “independence, integration, and dignity for everyone.”
[00:08:48] Rebecca: I think it’s worth pausing here for a moment to appreciate how with the times the US Forest Service is in this mission to incorporate universal design principles into new and reconstructed facilities and features. It’s great to hear that a governmental organization like this A) knows what universal design is, B) sees its value, and C) is at least outlining a commitment to pursue it. I’d be curious to see what it looks like in action. Did you find anything about that specifically, Sally?
[00:09:18] Sally: Yes, I did. So the USDA and US Forest Service published over 100 pages of accessibility guidelines for altering, renovating, and building public outdoor spaces. So needless to say, there are tons of rules in this guidebook about how to build certain structures or repave trails to make them comply with the ADA, ABA and other pieces of legislation. There are a couple of interesting things they mentioned in this guidebook that I want to share.
[00:09:43] First, we have more than 4,500 miles of trails that comply with accessibility standards. Most trails are 36 inches wide and have firm stable surfaces, but are not paved. And I found it pretty cool that if natural soils do not provide a firm and stable enough surface, soil stabilizer is used to firm up the pathway. I was not aware that there was something that could be added to the natural earth to make it more sturdy. I think this is a pretty cool alternative to paving a natural area.
[00:10:13] I also noticed that they outlined what accessible controls are in terms of the bathroom, specifically the sinks. The US Forest Service states that if the control can be operated with one closed fist, and with less than five pounds of pressure, the control is accessible. So they have listed three possible accessible controls that can be used in public restrooms within the national forest system, including a push button, a sensory operated faucet and lever handle controls. Obviously the sensory operated sinks are the most accessible because they require minimal effort to control, but lever handles are also commonly used universal design features too. I think it’s interesting that they suggest the push controls because I personally always dread using these in public bathrooms. They often don’t work very well, the water doesn’t last very long, or it seems like it takes more than five pounds of pressure to push, at least in my experience.
[00:11:07] Sarah: Yeah. I actually agree with that as well. Those push button ones are kind of annoying because the water turns off before you even have the soap off of your hands. But I actually found that pretty interesting about the path types and the widths of paths that you mentioned that they outlined as well as this soil stabilizer to firm up the pathway. I had no idea about that either, and it really does give people a different experience other than a paved pathway, because they’ve found the solution in making it firm. I think it’s actually quite encouraging that they’re also providing specific guidelines and suggestions on exactly what to do in the trails, as well as in the bathroom facilities to help give people pointers on how to make things more functional. They’re taking out the guesswork and giving people a clear direction to go.
[00:11:54] Sally: Absolutely. And another program that is dedicated to embodying the principles of universal design is the National Center on Accessibility, also known as the NCA. The NCA was established through a partnership between Indiana University and the National Park Service, and they claim to be leading the parks and recreation professions in welcoming people with disabilities and in creating fully inclusive recreation environments for all to enjoy.
[00:12:21]I actually want to read an excerpt from their website because I couldn’t have said it better myself. “At NCA, we believe that the principles of universal design and inclusion are important factors for achieving personal wellness and building healthy communities. Among people with disabilities, recreation and active leisure pursuits are vital for rehabilitation from illness or injury, prevention of disease, longevity, mental health, and sustained quality of experiences across the lifespan.”
[00:12:49] Rebecca: What an awesome perspective that the NCA has on this topic. This makes me feel really optimistic about the future of universal design and its more widespread understanding and use. So, we just learned about how the US has created or further developed existing programs and legislation that promote inclusion in outdoor spaces, but how can people actually find and participate in these accessible recreation opportunities?
[00:13:16] Sally: The National Park Service, also known as NPS, is also committed to providing indoor and outdoor recreation opportunities to all Americans, as they strive to make our parks, monuments, and historic sites available to all. You can use the NPS website to locate all accessible parks across the country. You can click on a handicap icon on the map to learn more about accessible features and services that particular park has to offer. Clicking on an icon will redirect you to a page about that park and the accessibility features it offers so you can do your research before planning a trip.
[00:13:48]I also found a pretty cool blog post on tripsavvy.com. That is a guide to national parks for those with disabilities. In this post, accessible parks are listed by region so it’s easy to find a park that is closest to where you’re located. And the author makes a few suggestions when preparing for your visit. She first suggests obtaining an access pass, which we have talked about, and she also suggests calling the park beforehand to clarify the accessibility services and accommodations that are available at that site or park.
[00:14:19] As I said, this information should be on the national park service website, but it is always smart to call ahead, just to double check. She also suggests considering looking at different park websites and checking calendars, to see if there are any special programs scheduled for people with disabilities.
[00:14:34] Sarah: I actually didn’t know about these resources. I can see where this would be super helpful to research before packing up the entire family for a day trip or maybe something that’s a bit longer, especially if you don’t know people in that area of the country to ask about that information. Great, find, Sally.
[00:14:52] Sally: I think the government websites are pretty informative, at least from what I’ve seen in my research, but I would love to hear from you or one of our listeners, if they are actually as helpful as they seem.
[00:15:03] So recreation.gov is another website. That seems great for finding accessible places and activities and there’s actually a filter feature on this website and you can specify a range of preferences, including recreation site type, activity, and accessibility needs. But just like the vacation rental sites we talked about last week, I ran into a similar problem here with the filter options. It takes a little bit more digging to discover what makes the search results accessible. There aren’t many pictures or measurements on the site, so it would probably be in your best interest to make a call to the park ranger, to discuss the accessibility features.
[00:15:42] New- horizons.org has accessibility information organized by state. Some of the information on the site includes accessible parks or outdoor spaces, and a brief description of the location. But most of the information provided is related to state specific accessibility guidelines. This site also provides links to state park finders, which also have similar accessibility features as recreation.gov, which makes it a bit easier to narrow down your options.
[00:16:10] The last site I stumbled upon in my research was TrailLink. On the site, you can view wheelchair accessible trails by state. This is a great resource for those who are looking to bypass the large national parks and instead enjoy time outdoors in their local communities. Many of these trail options are more casual. This site also has a filter feature, but it’s pretty unique. You can filter options based on trail length, activity type, including wheelchair accessible activities, and the trail surface, which I think is pretty cool to be able to get this specific in the filter options. This specificity is what I was hoping to see on the travel sites like Airbnb and VRBO. The Trail Link site gives you some basic information and allows you to browse through pictures, which can help recreationists pick a trail that best suits their needs. Trail Link is free, but in order to start your search, the site does require you to make an account.
[00:17:02] Rebecca: Wow, Sally, you are becoming quite the expert on all kinds of accessible travel and leisure opportunities. You could have the start of a nice business here. Are you sure you don’t want to be a very niche travel agent? Also, Sarah, I’m curious, have you and Scott used any of these resources to find outdoor experiences that work for your family?
[00:17:22] Sarah: So we actually haven’t used many of these resources and I’m not sure I knew they even existed. Oftentimes I think we just assume a lot of these places wouldn’t be easy to access, but Sally, I think you’ve given me some encouragement to check them out. And I hope to encourage some of our listeners to do the same, and share the resources with others.
[00:17:42] I do have to agree, though, from what you stated above, it would be interesting to see how accurate the accessibility info is in regard to the filters that are used on the individual sites. I do want to note that it is helpful that there are sites also looking at other statewide trails and paths that might not be part of the national park system but nestled into individual communities. We have a few nice paved options close to us. One that has a great option for our two and a half year old as well. There was a nice view at the very end and it looked over the valley from a high altitude. And another one is part of a local community park where initially all of the paths were gravel.
[00:18:22] I think that the beauty of having these options is that your family can pick and choose based on skill level and environmental need with the path type. With more visibility with sites like this, it can get even more people outside enjoying the fresh air without feeling like they have to do a hard hike.
[00:18:39] I’ve also seen communities begin creating paved paths that provide people with another option to sidewalks that connect different parts of town and bypass major streets. I have seen some communities also think of fun activities to provide along the way for people to stop and eat at a pavilion or play at a playground to even get more fun opportunities in with family and friends. There’s even some work being done in turning old railroad track locations into trails as well. You can check that out at railstotrails.org.
[00:19:12] Rebecca: Now that is pretty cool, and something I am curious to learn more about. So now that we’ve talked about where to find these accessible recreation opportunities, I want to hear a little bit more about noteworthy programs and adventures that are available to those with functional limitations. Sally, what can you tell me?
[00:19:32] Sally: The first program I stumbled upon in my research is called the Breckenridge Outdoor Education Center and they provide outdoor learning experiences to people with all abilities in Colorado. Their experiences include adaptive skiing and snowboarding, rock climbing, canoeing, whitewater rafting, ropes courses, and hiking.
[00:19:51] The Breckenridge Outdoor Education Center hosts a number of adaptive retreats throughout the year. They include meals, activity, instruction, 24 hour supervision, special equipment, transportation, site-based wilderness activities, outdoor skill, instruction, and education about environmental ethics.
[00:20:09]These are retreats for individuals, custom groups and veterans. These programs are designed for specific needs and ability levels. So they are really client centered and not a one size fits all retreat, which I think is pretty cool. The Breckenridge Outdoor Education Center makes sure that their programs are making a positive impact on their participants by evaluating their programs on an ongoing basis through partnerships with the US Department of Education, the Colorado Department of Rehabilitative Services and equipment manufacturers in research and development for adaptive technology.
[00:20:44] Rebecca: This is so cool. I would love to see one of these programs in action, or honestly, even participate. I like that you mentioned that they’re not one size fits all. I think that jives really well with us, of course, as occupational therapists and knowing that everyone’s needs are different. So I love that there’s a group out there putting that into action.
[00:21:03] Sally: Yes, exactly. Even when instructing a group of people with similar backgrounds or disabilities, like let’s say a group of veterans it’s important to address each person as an individual and really focus on their particular needs as well as strengths to make sure they’re getting the most out of their outdoor recreation experience.
[00:21:20 ]Speaking of veterans, I recently watched a Netflix documentary called Resurface about a surfing program for veterans. And in this program which is called Operation Surf, the instructors really focus on working with the individual’s skills and abilities to work with the sport and the environment. Participants in the program include those with hearing impairments, visual impairments, amputations, and PTSD.
[00:21:46] One Operation Surf participant actually mentioned that he has been on just about every medication on the market for PTSD and other related mental illnesses after fighting on the front lines. But surfing was actually able to give him much needed natural relief. Surfing is obviously a wonderful exercise and it’s awesome for your body, but I think it’s so cool that this program is more focused on the mental health benefits that surfing gives to people. The founder of this program harps on the fact that PTSD changes the brain’s chemistry and that surfing can actually combat these negative changes with positive, happy chemicals like dopamine. The rush of adrenaline you get from catching a wave can shape or alter your brain too, so it’s cool to consider that your body can act as a natural built-in pharmacy, as he likes to say. That’s not to totally discard the use of prescription medication because surfing isn’t the cure all, but it’s really important that people have these recreational opportunities to give them a chance to foster the production of these super important, super healing, natural brain chemicals that we have. I highly encourage our listeners to watch this film. It’s less than 30 minutes long and it’s very eye opening to the possibilities of outdoor recreation.
[00:23:01] Sarah: I actually haven’t seen that one, Sally, it sounds really interesting. I have had the opportunity to connect with veterans over the years, and I can see where providing opportunities like this could provide other ways to manage PTSD symptoms and participate in an activity with others who have similar struggles. The retreats are organizations in which I’ve connected with warriors and their families have really opened my eyes to the importance of supporting our veterans in a way that lets these families know they aren’t alone and helps provide some healthy alternatives to coping with the experiences they’ve had.
[00:23:34] There’s definitely something about being out in nature that helps reset our thinking and gives us an opportunity to recharge and learn new skills to help us physically, mentally, and emotionally.
[00:23:45] Sally: I totally agree. Another awesome organization I found is a nonprofit called All Out Adventures located in Massachusetts. This organization is dedicated to promoting health and independence for people with disabilities and their families through outdoor recreation. They have taken thousands of people of all ages, hiking, skiing, skating, paddling, and camping for the last 20 years.
[00:24:09] The majority of their programs are of no cost to participants, and a few are at a very low, affordable price. All Out Adventures aims to break down the barriers to participation in outdoor recreation, by providing all people with opportunities and equipment to engage in activities such as kayaking, cycling, camping, snowshoeing, skiing, and more. Program participants are those with a wide array of functional differences, including those with age-related disabilities, amputees, people with visual and hearing impairments, people with spinal cord injuries, muscular dystrophy, multiple sclerosis, developmental disabilities, and psychiatric disabilities. The majority of participants are adults, but children do participate frequently and are welcomed.
[00:24:52] All Out Adventures also has a recumbent trike shop where they sell trikes. And if you are not aware, which I actually was not aware of the term, I had seen them before, but I didn’t know they were called this, but recumbent trikes are those recliner bikes– you’ve probably seen them around town. But they’re actually easier on the joints and muscles because they allow the user to assume a more neutral body position. They have a backrest, and are lower to the ground and have three wheels, and they do not require a balance to keep them upright. People with neck, back and wrist injuries, pain or discomfort, as well as those that have had a stroke or brain injury find these trikes to be a great way to get exercise and gain independence.
[00:25:33] Sarah: This program actually sounds very similar to the adaptive sports center in Crested Butte, Colorado, which we’ve talked about a little bit before, and this is where Scott did his internship in 2011. We actually got acquainted with them when he did a class project in which he wrote a grant for them. His application was chosen and he secured money for the purchase of four downhill bikes.
[00:25:55] We went out for a week vacation to check out the center and we fell in love with it. We were so excited to see what they were doing, that he ended up doing his internship there after he graduated. But while we were there, we got to do so many fun things that he’s never done after his injury. The training and support was super empowering as well, and we met some really great people.
[00:26:17] In regard to more of those outdoor trikes, we met a guy named Jake O’Conner there and he was just getting into his company called ReActive Adaptations, and he was just getting that company off the ground and he makes custom off-road hand cycles. These types of bikes are actually very different from the trikes that Sally just mentioned, because they were meant for a totally different terrain and environment, and also for those with functional impairments to the lower extremities, rather than the upper body. The pedaling motion is done with the hands and arms, instead of the feet, which allows people with spinal cord injuries and amputations in the lower extremity to ride the bike. But the cool thing is that these trikes are custom made, so people with all sorts of disabilities can use one of these bikes, including those with multiple sclerosis and CP, as well as those with spinal cord injuries. Jake made one for Scott, and we were actually able to bring it home with us from Colorado, so he could bring some of the skills he learned back here with this custom bike just for him.
[00:27:19] Sally: Wow, that’s so cool. I would love to see Scott in action with his custom bike! The recumbent trikes are super cool, and it’s really awesome that they can be used by a ton of different people with a wide range of abilities, but there is something so amazing about these off-road hand cycles because they allow people with disabilities to really submerge themselves within nature.
[00:27:41] There is something much different about going on a bike ride down a paved path, like maybe in your neighborhood, and really getting that true, off-road rugged, nature experience where you are one with the landscape. For a lot of people who really connect with nature and find solace in the outdoors, being able to go mountain biking through rugged terrain independently is a much more valuable experience and more gratifying than using maybe some more basic equipment and paved paths to get their outdoor recreation in. Not that that’s a bad thing, but it’s really great that there are adventures and equipment available to people with a wide variety of recreation interests.
[00:28:20] Sarah: Yeah, I agree. A few of the individuals I met through the adaptive sports center echoed your statements above. Many didn’t even think it was possible to be able to get out and enjoy nature like this again. To be taught the skills and to be shown what’s possible is life changing and life giving to those who struggle with the daily life and challenges after an illness, injury, or those who are living with a chronic condition.
[00:28:43] Sally: Life giving is such a good way to put it. I truly believe that all people benefit greatly from outdoor recreation, whether it’s a simple walk in the woods or an adaptive bike adventure through the mountains. Participating in play and leisure outdoors is a wonderful way to improve physical health and boost mental wellbeing at the same time. For those who love to adventure with friends and family, it is also a great way to socialize and make memories with the ones you love, as well as meet new friends along the way. Good physical and mental health and opportunities for socialization contribute to enhancing an individual’s quality of life, so outdoor recreation should be enjoyed by all.
[00:29:22] Sarah: Yeah. I really love the fact that when I went on some of these programming opportunities with Scott, that I could do it just right alongside him. There are hints of universal design in these elements of adaptive programming, aren’t there, Sally?
[00:29:36] Sally: Absolutely, because even though these programs, adventures, and equipment we have discussed are not necessarily universally designed, they are actually contributing to a world that is more accessible to all. By having special programs for those that cannot participate in quote unquote standard recreation opportunities, we are bridging the gap between people with disabilities and people without disabilities. The knowledge and skills people gain from these programs are so valuable in allowing all people, regardless of ability, to participate in recreation side by side. When people come home after one of these accessible retreats, they can use the skills they have learned and maybe their new equipment, like Scott does now, and continue participating in their preferred outdoor recreation in their own home environment.
[00:30:23] Coupled with accessible outdoor spaces, accessible adventures, programs and adapted equipment can be so helpful in getting all people involved with the great outdoors.
[00:30:32] Rebecca: I absolutely agree, Sally, thank you for bringing this idea to the table and sharing all of these outstanding resources. I hope that what we’ve discussed today is only the beginning, and in the coming years, we see more and more people be able to be active participants in the great outdoors and able to soak up all the beauty that this earth has to offer.
[00:30:53] Sally: I couldn’t agree more, it’s an exciting thing to think about. And thank you to you and Sarah for exploring this topic with me as it’s not our usual Good Fit, Poor Fit content. Speaking of our podcast content, this is actually our 49th episode, which means the next one will be our 50th, which we are all very excited for.
[00:31:12] We would love to make the 50th episode extra special by including some content from you, our valued listeners. So please let us know if there’s a certain topic you loved learning about, a favorite episode you have, a favorite product we have discussed or anything you found to be valuable in influencing your own life or home design.
[00:31:32] Please send suggestions for our 50th episode to email@example.com. We look forward to hearing from you!
[00:31:40] Sarah: Yes. I can’t wait to hear some of your favorite things about Good Fit, Poor Fit, and I’m looking forward to including them in our 50th episode. Until next time listeners have a great day and maybe check out a few outdoor trails and some of the resources Sally shared. Happy, exploring!
[00:31:55] Thanks for listening to Good Fit Poor Fit. I’m your host Sarah Pruett, Program Director and Occupational Therapist at The Universal Design Project. Learn more about our work at universaldesign.org, and find more episodes and links to subscribe at goodfitpoorfit.com If you have questions or topics you’d like to discuss, email us at [email protected].
[00:32:24] Thanks for fitting us into your day!